Citroen Xsara car cutting out
Variant: xsara picasso 2.0 HDi diesel
Model Year: 2005
Categories:
Running Rough, Starting & Power Loss
-egr valvewonder if anyone can help. My xsara Picasso diesel car started 'cutting out' whilst driving - this occurs without any 'warning' - no 'juddering' or dips in power just stops dead with automatic loss of power steering and abs brakes. The car will then sometimes start within approx 10 mins. Car will be trying to turn over but struggle to 'fire', eventually she will 'fire' and start but engine management light then displayed. If car has not restarted within 10 mins it is not going to start and has to be taken back by breakdown - usually a few hours later, or next morning car will start first time, again engine mgmnt light displayed.
The diagnostics showed EGR fault - as a result the following has been changed, however, there has been NO change whatsoever in the fault!
Egg valve, solenoid valve, crankshaft sensor, air flow mass sensor, in tank fuel pump, new fuel housing (this was damaged), fuel filter, entire wiring loop has been checked - no faults whatsoever.
The only thing that has been found are 2 fault codes, which were removed by Citroen - one was a short circuit which stopped the car, if it won't start within 10 mins you apparently have the other fault on as well which is low fuel pressure which stops the car from restarting!
I am on first name terms with most of the drivers from my insurance breakdown service - if it gets me the 18 miles from home to work without mishap, it won't get me the 18 miles from work to home without stopping. On the occasions that it has made the 18 mile journey on 3 consecutive occasions without cutting out the pattern is that it invariably cuts out and refuses to start again so is recovered by breakdown to start next day.
This has been going on since June of this yr and has cost in the region of £2000 with various 'solutions' being put forward. One 'diagnostic' garage cost me £590 and when I have complained to Bosch that he just undertook repairs to what he thought was the problem without advising me before hand he stated it wasn't his fault he could not find a problem! He changed air flow sensor and in tank fuel pump. When this failed to change anything his 'diagnostics' said it had to be fuel regulator valve - reasoning - only part of fuel system he not changed!
One of the breakdown guys who has recovered it the last 3 times has the petrol version says he had to change the fuel pump on the engine and he believes that this is the problem with mine!
Help! Has anyone else experienced anything similar or can offer any suggestions. The car is in otherwise immaculate condition - just does not like going over 18 miles at a time.
The diagnostics showed EGR fault - as a result the following has been changed, however, there has been NO change whatsoever in the fault!
Egg valve, solenoid valve, crankshaft sensor, air flow mass sensor, in tank fuel pump, new fuel housing (this was damaged), fuel filter, entire wiring loop has been checked - no faults whatsoever.
The only thing that has been found are 2 fault codes, which were removed by Citroen - one was a short circuit which stopped the car, if it won't start within 10 mins you apparently have the other fault on as well which is low fuel pressure which stops the car from restarting!
I am on first name terms with most of the drivers from my insurance breakdown service - if it gets me the 18 miles from home to work without mishap, it won't get me the 18 miles from work to home without stopping. On the occasions that it has made the 18 mile journey on 3 consecutive occasions without cutting out the pattern is that it invariably cuts out and refuses to start again so is recovered by breakdown to start next day.
This has been going on since June of this yr and has cost in the region of £2000 with various 'solutions' being put forward. One 'diagnostic' garage cost me £590 and when I have complained to Bosch that he just undertook repairs to what he thought was the problem without advising me before hand he stated it wasn't his fault he could not find a problem! He changed air flow sensor and in tank fuel pump. When this failed to change anything his 'diagnostics' said it had to be fuel regulator valve - reasoning - only part of fuel system he not changed!
One of the breakdown guys who has recovered it the last 3 times has the petrol version says he had to change the fuel pump on the engine and he believes that this is the problem with mine!
Help! Has anyone else experienced anything similar or can offer any suggestions. The car is in otherwise immaculate condition - just does not like going over 18 miles at a time.
Posted: Sep 27, 2013 (11 years ago)
These can be a bugger to diagnose,I mean if it's not doing it's thing when I'm looking then you can never be sure!
But I'm with you up to a point,just replacing parts is not the way to do it,
That stated,you have a fault so........
My testing would be center on the crank angle sensor,
my reasoning?
It cuts dead,no warning,
so low fuel pressure or flow is unlikely,either would be apparent in the engine running just prior to the fault.
from your description it's the same as you have turned the key off!
yes?
And to all intents when this happens the ECU will see a no crank angle sensor signal and will conclude you have switched the engine off,
so no fault code registered.
Only 2 options,1,find a mechanic with an occilliscope with flight recorder function,this will show a waveform pattern until the fault,which I'm supposing is the internal circuitry going open circuit when hot/warm,opperating normaly when cooling down,well,from an electrical point of view.
Or buy and fit a new crank angle sensor,certainly a lot cheaper than the options explored so far.
And yes I have had several Crank Angle Sensors fail on various vehicles, in just such a manner.
Which reminds me,there is a third test option,
when,the hard part,when it next does it you or your mechanic will need to rapidly cool down the crank angle sensor with a can of freeze O spray,
I buy mine from my local maplins,
this spray can can cool anything it sprays onto well down to solid frost forming on the item in question/
If the engine then starts up instantly there's no question.
But,not so easy to get to spray the CAS on this car.
About all I could suggest is you run your usuall rout where it fails with a mechanic armed with a can of maplins "freeze spray" and hope it cuts out!
Good luck.
But I'm with you up to a point,just replacing parts is not the way to do it,
That stated,you have a fault so........
My testing would be center on the crank angle sensor,
my reasoning?
It cuts dead,no warning,
so low fuel pressure or flow is unlikely,either would be apparent in the engine running just prior to the fault.
from your description it's the same as you have turned the key off!
yes?
And to all intents when this happens the ECU will see a no crank angle sensor signal and will conclude you have switched the engine off,
so no fault code registered.
Only 2 options,1,find a mechanic with an occilliscope with flight recorder function,this will show a waveform pattern until the fault,which I'm supposing is the internal circuitry going open circuit when hot/warm,opperating normaly when cooling down,well,from an electrical point of view.
Or buy and fit a new crank angle sensor,certainly a lot cheaper than the options explored so far.
And yes I have had several Crank Angle Sensors fail on various vehicles, in just such a manner.
Which reminds me,there is a third test option,
when,the hard part,when it next does it you or your mechanic will need to rapidly cool down the crank angle sensor with a can of freeze O spray,
I buy mine from my local maplins,
this spray can can cool anything it sprays onto well down to solid frost forming on the item in question/
If the engine then starts up instantly there's no question.
But,not so easy to get to spray the CAS on this car.
About all I could suggest is you run your usuall rout where it fails with a mechanic armed with a can of maplins "freeze spray" and hope it cuts out!
Good luck.
Posted Sep 27, 2013 (11 years ago)
How much roughly is crank angle sensor? The mechanics reasoning why he thought it could be fuel pump on engine was because it cut off when it had received sufficient diesel to run, but he thought it could be sticking in the 'closed' position. Which would explain why sometimes if it hadn't restarted within minutes it wouldn't start.
At the Bosch garage which I am in dispute with it was supposedly attached to a diagnostic machine with a flight recorder for several hours at a time without a blip. He was also supposed to have extensively road tested it continuously four hours and it would never break down, yet within the 24 hours of me getting it back 'fixed' it would break down again and do exactly the same problem.
At the Bosch garage which I am in dispute with it was supposedly attached to a diagnostic machine with a flight recorder for several hours at a time without a blip. He was also supposed to have extensively road tested it continuously four hours and it would never break down, yet within the 24 hours of me getting it back 'fixed' it would break down again and do exactly the same problem.
Posted Sep 27, 2013 (11 years ago)
How much roughly is crank angle sensor? The mechanics reasoning why he thought it could be fuel pump on engine was because it cut off when it had received sufficient diesel to run, but he thought it could be sticking in the 'closed' position. Which would explain why sometimes if it hadn't restarted within minutes it wouldn't start.
At the Bosch garage which I am in dispute with it was supposedly attached to a diagnostic machine with a flight recorder for several hours at a time without a blip. He was also supposed to have extensively road tested it continuously four hours and it would never break down, yet within the 24 hours of me getting it back 'fixed' it would break down again and do exactly the same problem.
At the Bosch garage which I am in dispute with it was supposedly attached to a diagnostic machine with a flight recorder for several hours at a time without a blip. He was also supposed to have extensively road tested it continuously four hours and it would never break down, yet within the 24 hours of me getting it back 'fixed' it would break down again and do exactly the same problem.
Posted Sep 27, 2013 (11 years ago)
Bosch guys are usually pretty good but in diagnostics some things have to be right before others can be tested.
If the original fuel pressure was incorrect then either you stop there or fit a new pump and carry on testing.
I'm not defending them but,for example,you bring your car to me and it hasn't been properly serviced the first things I have to do is service it,new air/fuel/oil filters etc,
Now that probably has nothig to do with your specific fault but I have to have the vehicle meeting original specs.
and you are paying for that.
Anyway,back to the CAS,
The crank angle sensor is a device which take 12V in and either outputs 12V or Zero volts in a square waveform pattern,as long as the engine is turning over it should generate this squarewave output pattern,with a little "blip" deviation whic tells the car computer when cylinder #1 is at top dead center and ready for fuel/injection/ignition.
How much?
Phone Citroen parts dept,
How much to fit?
say an hours labour,
will this fix it?
who knows,this is a best guess given the information stated,
It's where I'd "begin" looking,nothing happens in these systems without a crank angle sensor signal,
Including the rev counter!
****!
just thought of that!
question?
when it does it's thing and fails to start,does the rev counter register anything?
If the original fuel pressure was incorrect then either you stop there or fit a new pump and carry on testing.
I'm not defending them but,for example,you bring your car to me and it hasn't been properly serviced the first things I have to do is service it,new air/fuel/oil filters etc,
Now that probably has nothig to do with your specific fault but I have to have the vehicle meeting original specs.
and you are paying for that.
Anyway,back to the CAS,
The crank angle sensor is a device which take 12V in and either outputs 12V or Zero volts in a square waveform pattern,as long as the engine is turning over it should generate this squarewave output pattern,with a little "blip" deviation whic tells the car computer when cylinder #1 is at top dead center and ready for fuel/injection/ignition.
How much?
Phone Citroen parts dept,
How much to fit?
say an hours labour,
will this fix it?
who knows,this is a best guess given the information stated,
It's where I'd "begin" looking,nothing happens in these systems without a crank angle sensor signal,
Including the rev counter!
****!
just thought of that!
question?
when it does it's thing and fails to start,does the rev counter register anything?
Posted Sep 28, 2013 (11 years ago)
With regards to the rev counter I not noticed it, but it the digital display I've got. However, when it trying to start it is just like it is turning over OK but it cannot manage to 'spark' into action for the final push to start the engine. I don't think there is enough there to make any change to the rev counter. It is difficult to explain, but when the car had a flat battery and I tried to start it you know what that attempt is like, there is nothing. With this it is as if everything is ticking over it is just the final connection to it starting that is missing. The car had had a major service in May of this year, the only thing the garage close to work where I had it services was change the fuel filter (because they couldn't get fuel housing off) I found out later when my normal garage had it on breakdown that whoever had changed this last (before I bought car) had broken the housing and superglued it. This was 'wet through' with diesel so it was assumed there was a possibility that if it was leaking diesel it could be taking in air into the system which could be contributing to problem.
Posted Sep 28, 2013 (11 years ago)
I seem to be having a similar problem. Did the suggestion of replacing the crank angle sensor cure this problem for the original poster?
Posted Jul 31, 2014 (10 years ago)
I have had the exact same thing happen with my citreon picasso. Whilst driving it would suddenly cut out with no warning at all. I would have to leave it for a while and it would start up again. I had the fuel sensor changed and it stopped doing it. It cost me £80 including vat for the senor and £160 including vat for the labour.
Posted Jan 23, 2016 (8 years ago)
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